Someone recently asked if the source code from Descent 3 will be released. I reached out to my old boss (Matt Toschlog) at Outrage Entertainment and he gave me the go ahead. I'm going to work on getting this running again and I'm looking for some co-maintainers.
My wife and I met on a Descent forum, our 3 sons are named for Descent friends (KoolBear, Jediluke, and Mark392), and we've attended weddings (and sadly one funeral, RIP JinX) for Descent friends. Even though I considered D3 the weakest of the Descent games, this news makes me happy. Thank you, Kevin!
After years of lurking, I had to finally create an account to post this. I remember when you and Drakona got married. Congrats again!
It’s been a long 15+ years since I was last active in the Descent community. I lost access to my ICQ account when my PlanetDescent email went away, and I no longer go by DCrazy online, in part to distance my adult self from the preteen I was then. But Descent (especially D3) is heavily responsible for me getting into software engineering, and I will always be grateful for those memories.
Drakona, sitting next to me: "Dcrazy? I remember a dcrazy!"
There's still an active online community around Descent and Overload (Mike/Matt's spiritual successor.) If you look up Overload on Discord you'll find that server, and the #descent channel will have links to the various other Descent servers.
I backed Overload and left a note about how important Descent had been to my career. I think my backer rewards were a free license and an Overload keychain. :)
Writing D3 mods was a big reason I got a copy of Visual C++ as a birthday present. And I laid down an absolutely awful drum track for an album UNIX was recording with Stephan Jenkins (I think) from 3rd Eye Blind. An interview about those demos was the first thing I did after joining my college radio station, where I then became responsible for converting the PC workstations to Mac… which exposed me to Xcode and sent me across the country to work on software for Apple devices for the next decade and counting.
I love how many of us who are IT or software professionals now got our start cobbling things together at the dawn of online gaming. Not as professionals, just as people who happened to be there and wanted to make something work. The 90s were a wild and wonderful time.
It's fun to hear from you! I'm glad you said hello!
I thought about putting their actual names -- Michael, David, and Mark (even though Mark392 isn't really named Mark) -- but I thought it'd be funnier to just put their pilot names at first.
To add some missing context (though perhaps also to spoil my husband's joke) -
Koolbear, whose real first name is Mike, founded and was instrumental in the life of the forum where the two of us met and has been a hero and inspiration to both of us.
Jediluke, whose real first name is David, is the most vigorous and prolific competitor the game has ever seen, recognized by pilots of practically every era and environment as elite and dominant. He is also a close personal friend and the three of us ran the definitive ladder for the modern community together. And we are both big fans of him as a competitor.
Mark392 (whose real name doesn't matter for this purpose) is widely recognized by the modern community as the GOAT and is also a close personal friend for both of us.
I loved loved loved this game. Never understood why this concept didn’t become a whole genre. No actual up, 360 degree freedom, enemies that were smart and could snipe you. Wasted many hours back then and very eager to try this out.
Not that you asked, but there's exactly one (popular) game that utilizes the same control scheme in modern times, Outer Wilds. Although it's not a shooter, it's quite a nice adventure game.
I wouldn't get nauseas when I played Overload in VR, but I definitely developed a cold sweat fast. 30 minute sessions were a push and I'd need to recover after. The developers did all the best practices, but there's something inherently mentally stressful about a 6DoF game in VR while you sit still in a chair.
Actually, it's exactly like that! Most games with movement as a physical body, either with or without breast/hip make me car-sick, but this game is mostly taxing mentally because of all of the input. The only game that doesn't affect me, at all and which I can play for many hours is Contractors Showdown.
I’m about to try it in VR. I’ve gotten over most of my VR nausea, but I will say, the original Decent series games gave made me nauseated/gave me vertigo and headaches if I played them too much. Therefore, I am a little worried.
Not everyone has it even initially; it really varies from person to person. I suspect that to some extent it is influenced by past exposure to fast-paced first-person games (e.g. FPS when played using the mouse).
I used to get nausea when playing Doom in the nineties, it never got better. But I never get nausea from fps games with slower movement. I suspect the problem with Doom is how quickly you can change direction while running. You can run quite fast and a 90 degree turn doesn't slow you down at all.
In pretty much any FPS that allows using the mouse to turn (which was already the case even in Wolf3D), you can turn as fast as you can move the mouse. When playing competitively, and with experienced players in general, it is common to set mouse sensitivity rather high, allowing one to perform very fast - but still highly precise! - turns, either to follow the target, or to switch rapidly from one target to another, or to scan the area etc. Really good players can do what's known as a "180 quickscope" like that, which is exactly what it says on the tin - a very rapid 180 degree turn & aim to shoot someone you know is behind you. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEC4AE6KbxY
If you don't have experience doing this yourself, watching such a player over the shoulder can be very nausea-inducing. I think to some extent this is innate, but I suspect for those who don't have a strongly pronounced response to begin with, playing such games (and doing those rapid turns yourself) desensitizes you over time. And I think that also transfers to VR to some extent; I've been playing first-person shooters with WASD+mouse for ~30 years now, and I had no nausea whatsoever the first time I tried VR.
Doom does some weird stuff with FOV and how it renders the environment though; newer FPS games have "real" 3D graphics, Doom used some interesting tricks to make things look 3D. The Quake engine was iirc the first "real" 3D engine.
Quake was the first widely popular "real" 3D engine, but ironically the first game in the series being discussed in this thread, Descent, pre-dated it by around a year with fully 3D graphics in 1995.
> The Quake engine was iirc the first "real" 3D engine.
There were many 3D engines before Quake. You had a bunch of Micropose combat flight sims, a ton of 3d driving games, even Elite on the BBC micro.
Hell, I'd written some 3D graphics on the Atari ST before Quake.
Quake was the first 3D texture mapped, dynamically lit, first person shooter...maybe...depending on your definition. It was certainly one of the first to have that ran at frame rates around 30fps.
As others have said, Descent was also around the same time too.
For me there was practically no sickness at all, first time I used the headset I felt a little weird after an hour, and after that had no issues playing a variety of genres, with no teleportation.
Okay except that one time playing COMPOUND. By accident I moved the analog stick to the left while turning my head to the right, and the image moving the opposite of what I expected made me feel bad. I finished the level there, and then had to go rest for a couple of minutes and stop playing VR for the day.
tl;dr for some people it almost never happens, until it does.
I've owned multiple VR headsets and have many, many hours of VR experience. With seated experiences (vehicles/aircrafts/rollercoasters) I never got nausea, not even initially.
The only experiences that made me nauseas were the ones that simulated movement of characters, where pressing a button would move the character and camera forwards. That was just too much of a disconnect. Movement by teleporting was not a problem.
It was worst the first few times, and I did not last long before I had to take a break, powering through was not possible. With experience it got better, the nausea/dizzyness was less intense and I could play longer sessions, but it never went away completely.
It may sound crazy, but I have never felt nausea with a computer. The only issue I had with VR was my hair trying to cover my eyes, in the middle of a race, and that was it.
However, once I rented a plane to go over the Nazca lines, and it was in a tiny plane, that was capable of changing direction very easily.
That day I felt nausea. By this, I mean you can't ignore it, it is a strong sensation. So much, that the guides will advise to do the flight on an empty stomach. And it was overpowering, one girl in the plane did not watch anything because she was focused on a paper bag close to her mouth.
Not even fast turning karts or anything else has been able to reproduce that feeling.
I've never felt nauseated from VR either. Tried it as a teenager in the 90s with an old-school Lawnmower-Man-style HMD, several generations of Oculus goggles, two different commercial HMDs in immersive gaming venues, etc. I do remember feeling disoriented when first playing the original Descent in the 90s, but no nausea.
In a small (3-4 seat) plane, I got a little nervous from the sudden changes in direction, but I didn't feel nauseated then either. I've been on one of those astronaut trainer 3-axis spinning chair contraptions a few times when I was younger and didn't feel any ill effects. I thought it was a fun experience.
I have gotten a weird variation on motion sickness a few times when I was on small boats. I'd be fine on the boat itself, but a day or two later, back on land, I'd feel like the surface of the Earth was bobbing up and down the way the boat had. It went away in a few hours or less, but it was hard to do anything productive while it lasted. I still didn't feel like I was going to vomit.
No. It can actually get _worse_, as you get more sensitized to VR. The recommendation seems to be to _stop_ using VR if you get motion sick, rather than trying to power through it.
Correct, according to general understanding from VR gamers and green my own experience. If you feel queasy stop immediately because pushing on will make it worse and cement the association in your brain. Leave it a while (a day or more ideally) then try again, repeat.
Maybe it differs on why you get motion sickness? Is it because the screens lag behind your movement with x millisecons or is it becase the eyes detect movement but the balance does not? Or a combination?
I'm guessing it's easier to get used to the motion/display lag than the balance sence issues.
I remember playing VR games with my HP Reverb G2 years ago and I did initially power through the motion sickness for a bit, but it did get better over the weeks until it just wasn't an issue at all.
Data points would be interesting too. Someone saying "I used to get sick after 15min, and now I can play for 60min without a problem. I always stop playing right when I start getting sick".
You know, just to see that it has happened to someone :-)
edit: well this became a bit longer than I initially planned, I think I just had a lot to share when it comes to my recent VR adventures.
Well here I am: I initially got queasy as soon as I moved, then I'd immediately stop and take a break, longer breaks in the beginning. Initially I got a strong sense of de-realization / depersonalization after getting out of the digital world (i.e. looking at your hands and your brain being confused if they're real) But that also went away very quickly. The nausea, and 'am I still in the matrix' feeling got better within days, and went away within weeks. Now I can stomach any crazy topsy-turvy locomotion in any game. But I still feel the sweat and excitement, when swinging off 1000 feet high cliffs in Jet Island, or diving hundreds of meters deep in Subnautica.
It's just amazing how immersive it can be. I think you can only get there by having it at home and really giving yourself the time to get into it.
It's also re-ignited my love for single player games, especially modded triple A titles like Dragon Quest XI, or Resident Evil 2 (Remake) for example.
And btw, I run all of this on (arch) linux, on a Valve Index kit, using both SteamVR and OpenXR through Envision (Monado). It's been a bit of tinkering but that's only made it more satisfying for me. Plus, there are great communities like the Linux VR Adventure group: https://lvra.gitlab.io/
My experience is analogous to yours. Initial motion sickness, *strong* de-realization and de-personalization (especially with hands, but also my torso and legs).
Nausea didn't get better and seemed to be present when my head was turning but the camera was moving either the opposite way or in the same direction but too fast.
I have some really good memories of spending hours inside of Obduction VR (highly recommended if you liked Myst / Riven / The Witness / etc), but the de-realization was so severe that I ended up abandoning that form of entertainment out of concern for my sanity.
Yeah, add me to the list of people who have used the "stop immediately when you're getting noticeably queasy" technique to train my stupid brain to realize that no, it's not actually being poisoned, so it should stop fucking thinking it is and grow the fuck up. ;)
There are still some sorts of games that will make me queasy (games that have a lot of uncontrollable-by-me jumping around (think "leaping ninja fighting games') for instance), but by and large, I've no trouble.
I also found Dramamine to be helpful during the intermediate period where I'd still otherwise get nauseous after a while. I find it continues to be helpful for things like those stupid "leaping ninja fighting games".
Here's my experience.. got a Vive, ZERO motion sickness, was developing some games and toys with it for 6 months or so. Played about 20 minutes of some Resident Evil game on PSVR and got REALLY motion sick around the 10 minute mark and just powered through for another 10 minutes. I had to lay down and it took a good hour to fully recover. Now I can't play VR at all without getting sick, start getting the sweats and nausea as soon as I put my vive headset on. completely ruined VR for me, never finished my game I was working on, VIVE just collecting dust. Fuck the PSVR, I'm still mad about it.
«I am the CEO of Orbital Design Studios, and am the designer behind the canceled "Descent IV" project in 2002. This game is a thing I thought I'd never see, aside from prototypes in my company's archives.
A very warm welcome back to Matt & Mike and all of the old crew of Parallax and Outrage Entertainment who have returned to create this long dreamed of and hoped for creation. Thank you for putting my regrets that D4 couldn't get made, to rest. Overload will stand for all time in its place.»
"Overload" was a game made in Descent style, by the original creators of Descent (Mike and Matt), with a great deal of input from the Descent community. My wife and I spent a week at the studio (while ~6 months pregnant with a child we named for a Descent friend) working on Overload's flight model and tweaking some in-game stuff. The game is now largely maintained by fans, with significant multiplayer mod support and even a full remake of the D1 campaign!
Overload is awesome! However I wonder if some remnants of 90s game design like tight time limits and repeating enemy ambushes that make the game such a familiar and intense experience for the old school in reality disadvantage the game and the genre from reaching wider audiences.
There was also another classic Descent contender, Forsaken, that got remastared in 2018 to run on Linux and macOS in addition to modern Windows platforms. The original game was actually used as a graphics benchmark for early 3d accelerators due to its lighting effects.
That said, looking forward to playing Descent 3 on a modern platform!
Making it a 6DOF shooter at all probably severely hampered any chance of achieving mass appeal. If it had been 40-80 hour open world, character-based, third-person action adventure game, their chances would likely have been much higher.
Yes, I was just rather facetiously making a point that the game is all the more interesting to its intended audience for not trying too hard to appeal to anyone else.
If we're including Outer Wilds, wouldn't almost every other space sim/pilot game also qualify? Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, etc. They all have 6 DoF for both rotation and strafing.
The fact the game has no items, no power ups, no levels, no enemies. Just one question: what is going on? And your job is to figure it out. Knowledge is your only way forward. Unfortunately that means the game can only be played once and any spoiler will ruin it for you.
I disagree with "ruining", I've resorted to looking up some hints; mind you, in hindsight I would've figured it out myself if I spent a bit more time on it.
Eh, I think that game definitely needed a bit more play-testing polishing. More than once I got stuck and had to look up a hint. Only to discover that I actually had attempted the correct solution, but the mechanics were so clunky I was mislead into believing I was doing something stupid.
As someone who also bounced off it initially - I would recommend getting through the tutorial area and flying out somewhere in the ship before you put it down for good. Once I started going out there and visiting places, it really grabbed me. The more stuff you scan and read, the more intrigued it made me, and eventually I couldn't stop until I'd unraveled every story thread and mystery the game had to offer.
The way Outer Wilds rewards curiosity is incredibly novel. More subjectively, I’m quite partial to how the narrative reveals itself. Wish I could relive that experience all over again.
For me it's how you discover one by one elements of the history of the "aliens" and how you use the physics to solve some puzzles. I also love the story. IMHO is one of the best videogames ever made together with Obra Dinn
Get past the tutorial into space, then open up the panel in your spaceship into Rumours mode, showing the equivalent of a madman's red yarn walls; there will always be one item in there that is incomplete.
Else, open the map, pick an unexplored planet and go there. There is no wrong way to go.
It’s all fits together in a very nice way. It’s very much a space archaeology game — if you like exploring the game universe and understanding how it works, you’ll like it, but that exploration is the bulk of what it has going on.
This. Everything or at least nearly everything is consistent and logical. The goal of the game is for you to piece out how all the element relates together.
It's basically a really well implemented Newtonian physics based platformer in a deterministic universe on a time loop that resets (22 minutes), so the loop is basically figure out how to get some place and then execute it (i.e. you could decide you want to de-orbit the moon into its planet, practice it, and get it right). Timing also matters as the celestial bodies orbit around and some of them fall apart.
So maybe it's less frustrating if considered like "a Mario level that's supposed to be difficult"
The story is understated, poignant, and one of those "ultimately nothing happened but the real story is what happened along the way". For reasons like this I consider it similar to Disco Elysium, a totally different game on the surface
I think that's sort of true, but unlike Disco Elysium - which I simply loved - the bits of Outer Wilds I loved were at odds with the fact that basically all of the worlds gave me anxiety from their specific quirks (plus, I found them all being so small - especially the ones closest to the sun - made me constantly worried about falling off), and I couldn't finish it.
(I did watch a YouTube play through to get some of the experience without the terror later)
I didn't get it either, and I play tons of walking sims and narrative adventure games.
It feels more like a roguelike or a survival game to me with it's anti-features like falling damage and time limited resources and inescapable holes to get trapped in. And then you die and have to start all over again from the beginning. The epitome of not respecting the player's time.
It's the only game I have ever refunded on Steam, and annoyingly I keep getting recommended it because it's "like" all the other games that I play even though it clearly is not. I feel like I am in bizarro world with the amount of people who rave about it.
I don't know, there are lots of games that feature the same die-and-repeat mechanics - roguelikes, soulslikes, metroidvanias, shmups, survival games - and I don't play those games precisely because I find them tedious and disrespectful of my time. This game for some reason gets grouped in with walking sims and adventure games but in fact it shares little in common with those genres due to the instadeath scenarios, time limits, resource limits, and so on.
It is not really die-and-repeat, but die-and-meaningfully-progress even though you seemingly start from the same place. It's so unlike metroidvanias and other stuff you mentioned that I'm wondering if we are talking about the same game.
It is absolutely an adventure game - aside from some arcade elements - you solve puzzles throughout entire game and you retain progress once you've solved them.
That's quite intentional on the game part. The best advice I can give you is reach the observatory / museum on your home planet, and from there try randomly exploring the entire solar system (Hint: what's literally the first thing you see when your character open their eyes?).
There also was a nice game called "Parkan" (and then Parkan 2), but it's not really well-known outside of Russian-speaking markets. It looks like it's available on Steam now.
Adding my vote for Overload. I'm not sure if it is the same team that built Descent(s) but some of them were involved in level design of the originals. I believe music composers were the same.
I really enjoyed the story too, that was probably the first game I played through to the end, just to find out how the story ends.
I believe the team has long disbanded which is a shame, it is a very _decent_ product (ha!)
> I'm not sure if it is the same team that built Descent(s) but some of them were involved in level design of the originals
Not the same exact team head-for-head but pretty close. Matt Toschlog and Mike Kula were both game directors on the original (and founded Parallax Software). They were the game directors of Overload as well and they're the founders of Revival, the studio that made the game.
The game is very well made, and as far as I know they delivered everything they promised to their backers (it was on Kickstarter). I bought the game (on PC AND on XBox) and left positive review on Steam. Hopefully they're working on something else that's just as awesome!
Most of the free roaming part of the game doesn't seem to make much use of this though; all the solar systems are effectively flat, space stations don't have a distinct up or down, granted, but you don't need to fly through tunnels etc.
The pvp mode (Arena?) does offer loads of use for that aspect of it though. But, I could never get on with the combat style, it feels like you spend a lot of time turning your nose to try and get aligned with your target. That may be me failing at it though, but trying to maneuver away to turn around means the enemies are on my tail.
I think a lot of the more experienced combat pilots will turn off flight assist so that the ship's nose doesn't have to be oriented with your momentum.
Having had a bit of this experience with Gravity Rush, I think a weakness for me is that 6dof games can end up feeling a bit like just pointing at some target and hitting the forward button. Basically, without the constraints of “regular” flight mechanics like having to maintain velocity, avoid stall, etc, the whole thing devolves into endless pointing and 3D circle-strafing.
One fun feature was you could shut off your suit power to go into a stealth mode. This turned off all the HUD elements, and, amusingly enough, turned off most gameplay noises (the explosions and bullets whizzing by) because, in-universe, all those noises are generated by the suit computer, because space is silent!
> When I bought Free space it was actually titled Descent: Freespace - The Great War.
I loved the series too, though the name was only prefixed with “Descent” to avoid a trademark conflict with an existing bit of software already called FreeSpace. It’s completely unrelated to Descent story-wise (and I’d argue is almost completely unrelated gameplay wise too)
Wasn't there a different control mode in ED that made it more realistic or more like Descent though? I believe the default is that, where inertia is cancelled out automatically for easier flight.
Of course, to make the game playable and fair there's a maximum speed you can achieve while not in hyperspace.
If there is it’s completely a surprise to me and I’m now quite interested in using it. My biggest beef with the game is how slow the ship is to turn in combat and that I can’t do strafing.
FA Off, or Flight Assist Off, is the mode in Elite Dangerous where your ship does not correct any momentum (angular or linear) that you have, except for imposing speed limits. In this mode, you will be using 6 strafe thrusts and 6 turning controls, and it's entirely up to you to use them to cancel momentum if you want to stand still or fly in a controlled direction.
It is absolutely incredible to play like this, and very hard but rewarding. It can be essential for high level combat, and there's an entire community of hooners (sp?) that fly among narrow spaces between mountains doing incredible maneuvers. They use extra things like opening the cargo hatch or landing gear as aerobrakes (lower ship speed limit). Many "normal" pilots will enable and disable Flight Assist situationally, mostly to gain extra turning speed during FA OFF. It's worth searching youtube for some related videos.
Unfortunately for mouse/keyboard users like me there's a couple of things in the control scheme that conspire to make it harder to use than it could be. Still, the first time I landed my Cutter (a massive ship with brutal inertia) in a rotating station with FA OFF, I felt like the king of the world.
Note that you don't need FA OFF to do strafing in all directions. I do it all the time. However with FA ON, the ship will counter your strafes to correct the ship's motion into the forward/back axis. Strafes in FA OFF are more powerful and can let your ship move at top speed in any direction while facing any other direction, but you only really need that for tight flight maneuvers.
That sounds quite a bit like decoupled mode for star citizen. Altough, there you still get automatic following the cursor for rotation, but no correction for linear movement.
I thought I had gotten this (Descent 3) for free with a graphics card I purchased, but Freespace was what I was thinking of, though it might have been Freespace 2.
The graphics card was the Diamond Viper V770, if I recall correctly. Good times!
I had Descent 1 on PS1, and I remember the box claiming the enemies adapted to your play style. Now that I'm older and have studied machine learning and some other AI techniques, I've always wondered exactly what that meant. I'm sure my PS1 wasn't doing gradient descent (heh).
What tricks were behind the claim that the enemies learned and adapted to the player?
Given this was release at a time when in most games enemies simply roamed the levels and attacked the player when he crossed their line of sight, a simple automata based AI that actively pursued the player and tried to use cover when shot could be described as "adapting" to your play style.
AIMain.cpp is 7kloc. Searching for relevant words yields nothing, but it's not impossible to code something along the lines of "if the players flies around like crazy, do one thing, if he sits in the corner, do another".
I don't know how much Descent 3 shares with the original in terms of AI code, but Descent 3 seems to give NPCs a dynamic list of goals that's initialized based on their class ("stalker", "evader", etc.).[1] Each goal has a priority/weight, and criteria that will cause the goal to be enabled or not. Some of the goal enablers are straightforward, but others look more like state machine "emotion" states - fear, curiousity, etc.[2]
Seems complex enough to meet the description on the box for the original Descent.
Well, it's of course a marketing term, so I don't think it really needs to mean much.
In videogames sometimes the AI skill is adaptive in very simple terms, e.g. reaction times or see/aiming range or chance of hit are increased or lowered to keep the game engaging.
There's a weird effect where sometimes one game in a genre will become so iconic that nobody wants to try and make another one, possibly out of fear of seeming like they're ripping it off? It happened to Descent, and I feel like it happened to e.g. Myst as well - everyone was expecting the huge success of Myst to launch a whole genre, and then it just... didn't.
Myst may not have launched a genre, but it did establish its own kind of game style.
3D world. Adventure game mechanics, with problems and puzzles - but where progress opens up more puzzles, and where instead of developing the character skills, you develop the story. Slow paced.
There have been plenty of games to tap into that style, but not enough or frequently enough to warrant calling them part of a genre. Black Dahlia. The Witness. Talos Principle. In a way, even a visual story like All That Remains of Edith Finch can trace its root to Myst.
> 3D world. Adventure game mechanics, with problems and puzzles - but where progress opens up more puzzles, and where instead of developing the character skills, you develop the story. Slow paced.
7th guest came out first. Too dark, while also being too campy to have the widespread lasting appeal of Myst, so no surprise why outside a niche one is mostly forgotten and the other always comes up even if only to hate for some. But they were basically the same game.
I don’t even know if 7th guest was first of its kind, probably not, but it sold bucket loads, partly because it was a pack in game for MPC kits and PCs in the early 90s.
Zork Nemesis one of my favorite games from the 90's was heavily inspired by Myst it was one of the first games I played where I felt immersed in the game world.
Nowadays this is the walking simulator genre with hundreds of titles available, but certainly I agree that it took an extremely long time to truly become its own thing.
I think Myst's innovation was mainly using a first-person perspective with (pre-rendered) scenes of a continuous 3D world. Otherwise it was a point-and-click adventure that arguably didn't reach the heights of some earlier Lucas Arts games. Unfortunately these games went out of fashion because most people want some amount of real-time action in their games. But they still get made occasionally by smaller developers on Steam or Android/iOS.
> The series caused a major shift in the adventure game genre. Unlike previous games, Myst attempted to keep players immersed in the world by removing all information not associated with the fictional world itself—no explanatory text, inventory, or score counters.
> I think Myst's innovation was mainly using a first-person perspective with (pre-rendered) scenes of a continuous 3D world.
The 7th Guest was released months earlier. It’s the exact same genre and technically more ambitious. It uses FMV, but all the 3D worlds are pre-rendered.
I think it is should be obvious to most here why Myst was more generally successful. But outside of story and atmosphere (the former of which is porn plot in both) mechanically they’re the same game.
There's Telltale games, but IIRC they are more visual/interactive novels, and I believe there were new Sam and Max games, classic adventure / point and click games. And a new Monkey Island.
My view is that both Myst and Descent were compelling at release because they showcased new technologies.
For Myst it was a high res 3d modelled world you could traverse, interspersed with video clips, all made possible by the new CD-ROM tech. It wasn’t actually that great a game. I loved it at the time but in retrospect there’s just not that much there. The most recent incarnation of a game like this is The Witness which is better in every way I can think of.
For Descent it was true 3D - was it the first? It predates quake. Maybe some people were captivated by the gameplay but for me it was “holy shit it’s 3d”. There’s a reason we have tons of FPSes and only a few Descent clones; the latter just aren’t that fun for most people.
There were tons of Myst clones that came out after. The most prominent example was probably Rama, based on the Arthur C. Clarke novels. But lots of others like Shadow of the Obelisk, Obsidian, etc.
There were quite a few myst like in the 90s. Lighthouse: The Dark Being is one I enjoyed as a kid.
Rheah is another one during that period.
Cryo released an entire series of Myst like with Atlantis (not great though). Mystery of the Nautilus and Return to Mysterious island are decent though.
So, I'd say there were plenty of myst-like clones mostly focused on the European market though and not necessarily very successful.
The Sims was like that too, and it's only recently that anyone's tried to launch a full-blown competitor, Life By You from Paradox, who also launched a full blown SimCity competitor, Cities: Skylines. It's run by Rob Humble, who managed The Sims 2 and 3.
Myst was the top selling game of all time until The Sims came along and dethroned it for quite some time. So you have a point about how some top selling games can become so iconic that there aren't any alternatives for a long time.
I think it's a great thing that Paradox eventually picked up the ball and made some competition for SimCity and The Sims, after EA strayed from the original designs, and enshitified them with all the expansion packs and online DRM bullshit.
Competition is great, and The Sims 4 and SimCity and the competing alternatives would be much better off and further along, if they only had viable competition all these years. EA should have released and documented and supported their internal content creation and programming tools for user created content, instead of putting all their effort into competing with fans and trying to squeeze the last penny out of it with expansion packs.
I've proposed and campaigned for EA to release the tools since before the release of The Sims 1 in 2000, and they did eventually give me the rights and pay me to develop and release some limited tools like The Sims Transmogrifier for The Sims 1, but they never followed through with releasing the internal tools like the Edith editor and SimAntics visual programming language, or the 3D Studio Max content creation tools, and they never officially supported or documented anything, the way Factorio and other games do such a wonderful job at.
This video shows Edith -- The Sims Steering Committee - June 4 1998:
And this shows The Sims Transmogrifier and some other tools I developed with it, and user created content programmed by fans with the limited tools available (iffpencil2 etc) -- Demo of The Sims Transmogrifier, RugOMatic, ShowNTell, Simplifier and Slice City:
Decades later, it's now possible but difficult to develop and program user created content for The Sims 4 in Python, but it's terribly documented and practically unsupported. Here is the original proposal I wrote around the time we released The Sims 1 in March 2000, which outlined what we should do, but unfortunately they didn't take it nearly as far as I suggested, and never let me release the 3D Studio Max animation and object exporters, or the Edith editor and visual programming tools.
>A Proposal to Develop Third Party Content Authoring Tools for The Sims, by Don Hopkins, March 2000
>This is a proposal I wrote to Maxis after The Sims was released in March 2000, outlining some of my ideas for third party content authoring tools that I could develop. This led to The Sims Transmogrifier, but it touches on several other interesting tools and projects that Maxis never got around to.
>Problem Definition:
>There is a strong demand many from third parties who want to develop their own custom content for The Sims, including characters and objects.
>Proposed Solution:
>Update, clean up and document the content creation tools, so third parties can make their own characters and objects for The Sims.
>Port the tools to the latest version of 3D Studio Max.
>Make the tools self contained so they can be run stand-alone, by removing all dependencies on the Maxis environment and expensive software packages: Character Studio (Biped, Physique), Access, SourceSafe, MKS Toolkit (Korn Shell).
>Document the content creation tools with an overview, examples, tutorials, and a reference manual. Write down the folklore that has been passed by word of mouth. Read over the code and document how it actually behaves.
>Provide consulting, training and content creation services to third parties who want custom content authored for The Sims, but don't want or know how to do it themselves.
>Develop a Sims Content Authoring SDK, so it's possible for third parties to create specialized content creation tools, like FaceLift.
>Goals:
>Third Party Character Creation and Customization:
>Characters include virtual people who the user can play with, as well as autonomous non-player characters with programmed behaviors. Characters consist of bodies, heads and hands of 3D polygonal meshes with texture mapped bitmap skins.
>Characters are created at Maxis by highly skilled artists using expensive tools like 3D Studio Max, Character Studio, the CMX exporter, and Photoshop.
>Simplify the content creation tools and make them run stand-alone, so third party artists and designers can create their own characters and objects.
>Maxis' expert 2D character artists currently use Photoshop to paint body textures in layers, then flatten and dither them into 256 color bitmap files.
>"Flesh out" the process of applying layered clothing to naked bodies and dithering to 8 bits, so anyone can dress up their characters in all kinds of clothes.
>Maxis' expert 3D modeling artists create textured low-poly rigid meshes (like heads, hands and accessories) attached to individual bones, and the CMX exporter creates rigid suits.
>Make the CMX exporter easy for third parties to use, so many proficient 3D artists will be able to make their own textured heads, accessories, selected character pointers, and carried objects.
>Maxis' expert 3D character modeling artists attach textured low-poly deformable meshes (like bodies) to skeletons using Character Studio Physique and Biped, and the CMX exporter reads out the weighted vertex/bone bindings and creates deformable suits for the game.
>Character Studio is an expensive plug-in that enables a skilled artist to bind deformable meshes to skeletons, but there are other ways to do that with 3D Studio Max and other 3D tools.
>Enhance the CMX exporter to support Max's new way of attaching deformable meshes to skeletons, so third party 3D artists can create bodies.
>Maxis designers and programmers use the Edith tool to configure the behavior of characters and objects.
>Clean up and document Edith, so third party designers and programmers can program and modify their own characters and objects.
>Third Party Object Creation and Customization:
>Objects consist of pre-rendered z-buffered sprites, packaged together with character animations, sound effects and programmed behavior.
>Objects are created in-house at Maxis, by highly skilled 3D modeling artists, using lots of polygons and detailed texture maps in 3D Studio Max. The sprite exporter breaks the objects up into tiles and renders them in different scales and rotations, then writes out z-buffered sprites.
>Clean up and document the sprite exporter, so third party artists can use it with 3D Studio Max to make their own objects.
>The sprite exporter is very specific to 3D Studio Max, especially when breaking apart multi-tile objects.
>Maxis' expert 3D character animation artists create skeletons and animations of characters interacting with objects. They use Character Studio Biped, although the exporter supports other types of skeletons, like the bones built into Max or even hierarchies of normal objects.
>Clean up and document the CMX exporter, so third party character animators can use it with 3D Studio Max with or without Character Studio to make their own character animations.
>Enable Third Party Content Creation Tool Development:
>Develop and document an SDK (Software Development Kit) that gives third parties the information they need to make their own content creation tools for The Sims.
>Enable and encourage the development of tools like FaceLift and Blueprint by third parties.
>A "BodyLift" tool that enables anyone to mutate, breed and tweak deformable body meshes, like FaceLift lets anyone do with rigid head meshes.
>A skin tool that enables anyone to layer clothes and accessories on different bodies, skin colors, sexes, ages, etc. Allow artists to create 32 bit alpha masked layers of clothing that can be applied to any body.
>An animation tool that enables anyone to create their own dance sequences, walk loops and idle animations, by mixing, cross fading and mutating between many pre-existing dramatic poses, dance moves, walks and idle loops.
>Specialized object creation tools that enable anyone create their own customized objects from templates, like a PictureFramer that would create a framed picture from any bitmap, or a JukeboxFactory that would create a jukebox full of your favorite mp3 files.
I know why it didn't make it as a concept for me; the rendering in the game wasn't quite correct, so I used to get sea sick playing this for more than 30 minutes. And I hardly get sea sick on boats. So I stopped playing it after about a month.
This entire thread led me down a long, long rabbit hole; I remembered the name "Descent", but I couldn't recognize anything about it in the online videos I saw on Youtube.
After hours of searching google, I realize that I was actually thinking about Terminal Velocity. Great soundtrack, fun game (although I never finished it).
I looked it up, and as I expected, it was a .mod format. My favourite soundtracks of that era almost always had .mod soundtracks (I despised midis back then, although I guess Monkey Island was an outlier).
The composer of the soundtrack left a message here.
>
@kylerichards4410
7 years ago
Nu music, I wrote the music to this game almost 25 years ago. You just made my night. :) Cheers.
>
@kylerichards4410
7 years ago
Ha...it's really me. :) Yeah, those mod formats were pretty brutal on sound quality. 8bit and around 5khz samples, if memory serves. It's a little difficult to listen to the originals, so hearing your remix was fantastic.
Again, great work. Really enjoyed it. :)
I wonder if zero-g 360deg spaceship games never hit the popularity of FPS because of how samey they are. You can always go anywhere, hit any angle, move in any direction. All things equal even Quake has more dimension to its moment to moment gameplay because you can't just fly around the map. (well, you actually can, but it's a tad different)
Awful comment to write in a Descent 3 nostalgia thread tho, I admit.
I just remember growing up on Descent and Forsaken and immediately discarded them once I discovered FPS in the early 2000s.
The reason is because 6dof games tend to have really difficult skill expression around movement and positioning.
With any 3d game it becomes a bit of a circle-strafe fight. With space and 6dof games, it becomes a flight simulator fight, which is an intense genre.
Additionally it removes some verticality from levels. IF EVERYTHING is accessible, it removes choices around taking the high ground / sneaking through the low ground.
I agree they are cool games, but they have some quirks that are not everyone's cup of tea.
The Descent series was my favorite of all time. Got the hotas setup for myself and others in the office did too. We had the best LAN parties. Being semi-lost and trying to get out in time before everything blew up was such a rush.
Arcade-style 6DoF games are so rare. And we have all the hardware now, just not the market to justify the effort. This D3 opensource could kick off a whole new round of games!
Level-editing in VR seems like it would be so much fun too.
> Never understood why this concept didn’t become a whole genre.
The subgenre is called 6DOF, and it does have games. But I agree it's not as big as it could be, and that the magic hasn't really been recaptured. Game developers seem to frequently have this same thought. Descent was good! This should be more popular! Someone tries every couple years or so, but the result generally disappoints.
It is my opinion that 6DOF games are difficult to make good, especially to the standards and expectations of modern gamers. The combat and level design are much more technical (or perhaps just differently technical) than someone from a flat FPS perspective expects, and as a result, the game design seems to have a lot of opportunities for technical mistakes to be made. I think more generic FPS developers, who remembered liking Descent back when our standards were lower, don't realize how much we've learned since then and how very much there is TO learn about the genre.
I find that aggravating. Every few years, the Descent community gets excited about a big 6DOF attempt, and every few years we get disappointed by the result. Even more aggravating, they generally make design mistakes that I think show ignorance of the genre. How does this keep happening? You wouldn't think of making an RTS, or a MOBA, or even a flight combat sim, or really any other very technical genre of game, without the expertise of the veterans and elite players of the genre. And yet 6DOF developers seem to me to do just that. I can only conclude that the problem looks from the outside to he easier than it really is.
I don't mean to sound arrogant! What I mean is that, I think the answer to your question "Why isn't this more of a thing?" is that it's a much harder thing than it appears to be. I think Descent's success can be attributed to a lot of things: to lower standards 30 years ago, to lucky or prescient design decisions, to a brilliant team enjoying the unique freedom of the wild world of 90s software passion projects, and to a lot of community involvement over time. And I'm not sure that's the whole list. I do think it should be a bigger thing now - there is a delicious flavor here and no reason this generation shouldn't love it too. But it's also apparent that Descent caught lightning in a bottle, and even I couldn't tell you everything that went into making it happen once but not twice. I can point to reasons that I think attempts to repeat it have been less successful, reasons that make sense to me as an expert player in the genre, problems I think I or a couple dozen pilots like me could help anyone avoid. But I'm not sure that explains all of the difficulty. Every now and again, some veteran pilot will take the problem into their own hands and try to make the next big 6DOF, and those projects are rarely finished and rarely good. It doesn't seem that hard, from a software point of view, and they know the game! Or think they do. And yet they fail. So genre expertise can't be the only ingredient, even if I think it's a necessary and usually missing one.
The problem is clearly harder than it looks. I think I know what to do, or at least one piece of the puzzle, but better warriors have been slain on that battlefield, and I haven't actually made the attempt, so I don't actually know. But I can definitely say this much: Developer beware! Here there be dragons!
when you add the extra degrees of freedom in Descent-like games, relative to Quake-like games (or flight/space sims but in different ways), there are some emergent behaviors that change how the game fundamentally feels. What frequently happens when random devs take on a 6dof project because they enjoyed Descent back in the day is they'll make a game that feels like a shooter with vertical flight, and is missing some of the key things that make Descent feel good. I've heard some 6dof games described as "it feels like I'm flying a camera, not a ship" (lack of turning momentum), or "it feels sluggish when I try to move in multiple directions" (lack of vector independence / trichording), or "it's just spray-and-pray combat" (undersized ship hitboxes relative to projectile speed/size and level size.) There are a lot of things we've learned over 30 years of playing Descent and Descent-like games that don't always get taken seriously by devs of other 6dof projects. And even when they do take everything seriously, there are things none of us have figured out how to articulate but that can make a 6dof game feel bad.
I think it'd be possible to build a great game in the genre, but you'd need a bunch of key things to come together, and then you'd also need great marketing to get the thing in front of millions of eyeballs to make enough sales to keep the community going.
As a 12 yo I learned about IRC from reading the Descent FAQ and tried setting up IHHD to play over a 14,4k modem. I made levels in DEVIL. Today I'm an engineer and game developer. Thanks for putting Descent out into the world. It had a huge impact on me personally.
I often think about what you could learn from trying to run games back in the old days. It was a huge motivation to fix some problem to get a game running. Optimizing the memory in ms-dos because the game needed more etc. Most often getting a game was a journey on its own.
Today kids just have 1 gazillion games on their phone. There is no more connection to the system beneath. No work or effort needed. Just download and play the next best thing.
Today's kids also play Roblox, Garry's Mod, Minecraft and Fortnite, all of which allow them to create their own games and tools and write code alongside it, like Verse for Fortnite [0], LUA for Roblox [1], IDK what language it is but there's something for Minecraft bedrock edition [2] and of course the old Java edition, and also LUA for gmod.
This is how thousands, if not millions of people will have their first foray into coding, and it's a much, MUCH larger amount of people that get in touch with the deeper levels of tech than "our" generation had.
Don't underestimate "this generation"; don't generalise them either by trying to state they only spend mindless time on their phone.
This is a good point. If I would have grown up today I would possibly have done other things that aligned with the same kind of interests, and perhaps even have gotten further. Kids these days can, and do, build actual robots and UAVs with onboard processors with more FLOPS than you could even dream of back in the old 75MHz pentium days.
And this is why I setup a mister fpga running an atari st for my 3 years old son's first foray into using his own computer. Eventually, we can also use the 486 core to run ms dos :)
I think old computers have a certain amount of simplicity that I think make the user less passive when using them. I also think that older games tend to be both less addictive and leave more to imagination.
Of course that won't be sustainable forever eventually he'll be influenced by his peers to play whatever they're currently playing but I'm hoping that having been exposed to older computers will be beneficial.
The biggest culprit was the cd-rom drivers and the mouse driver.
Our PC “only” had 4mb of RAM which was the minimum for Doom, but exiting Windows into DOS after boot left a lot of cruft in memory.
The first time I tried starting the computer and bypassing autoexec.bat (which I learned from reading on a BBS) I was scared it was going to be permanent. Luckily it wasn’t.
All I can think about was trying to muck with IRQ conflicts or messed up awful windows 95 drivers later on to get my game working. I'm not sure I miss either of those much but I also switched to Windows NT early and kept an old decked out Pentium 1 for dos games that ntvdm wouldn't play nice with.
Nodding though, oh man that got me into developing things like you wouldn't believe.
Quake 1, 2 had a huge community around coding or map making. Tribes 2 was absolutely all about mods. Command and Conquer with it's rules.ini or StarCraft with its gui scripting stored in map files I spent so many hours messing with. It was all about making something crazy to show off when you went back to school or later to a lan party to wow everyone.
When I was young, my parents bought me a copy of X-Wing (CD-ROM) for our Win95, Pentium 100 machine. My parents were not computer savvy, and being only 13 myself, I didn't know much about computers. My dad couldn't get it to work, and so the box sat on the shelf for months, maybe even a year. (Time's warped when you're a young kid. =P ) I'd leaf through the manual and gaze longingly at the box art, and look through the little technical leaflets that were included. The latter of which may have been written in hieroglyphs. I set it aside, played the Descent demo over and over that came with out PC, and surfed AOL.
I kept learning more about the computer in the meantime.
One day I was performing my old ritual, when I noticed one of the paper leaflets in the box. Rather than being hieroglyphs, I knew now what it was saying. X-Wing needed DOS EMS (Expanded memory), and this paper was telling me I needed to edit CONFIG.SYS on Windows 95 machines to get this to work. My parents had forbid me from touching anything in the "WINDOWS" folder (there be dragons, according to them) and after having wiped a lot of my mom's files on our earlier Tandy, they didn't want me messing with things I didn't understand that they couldn't fix.
But I was confidant. I edited the file, and hoped for the best. The computer restarted, and just as I'd done countless times before to no avail, tried to start up the game.
Listening to the Star Wars theme play MIDI over the speakers, I jumped up, ecstatic. It was late at night, and my parents were watching TV in the living room. I ran downstairs. "I GOT X-WING WORKING!!!!!!"
It was a feeling of accomplishment, that to this day I look back on and say "that's when it started". I think I knew it then, to some tiny degree, that this was going to be my path.
I'm 40 now. I'm a solutions architect at AWS. My computers were all built by me. And my X-Wing box sits on my shelf still.
I've talked with my niece, and with some other kids over the years about their gaming, experience with PCs, and the like. There's not much to figure out. I don't blame them; I don't shake my fist at these kids. After all, I recall the frustrations too. Building PCs that wouldn't start for no reason (well, this still happens), the unreliability of early home routers. Many early games that just wouldn't start on your PC but run just fine on your buddies. I remember LAN parties with my colleagues with a combined technical know-how in the room of several CCNAs, MCSEs, etc, and we still can't get our Unreal Tournament server to be seen by everyone's PC. Don't get me started on copy protection woes.
But there was a joy in finally getting it working, and through the stress, we learned a lot about how it all worked. The current internet and computer environment doesn't have that in that you need to know how it works in order to enjoy it. I wouldn't reverse the state of affairs; things are much more mature and stable now. And it's not as simple as saying "well go off and do these projects". We can motivate some to do so as a stretch, but nothing was motivating the same way as sheer necessity like we had it.
So I see it as just something to observe and note and appreciate for how we had it then, both maddeningly frustrating yet glorious in how genuine and unrefined it all was. Hopefully later generations will find their own versions of what we experienced.
I'm glad to have lived through it. It kick-started a love of computing and a lifelong career.
Descent's control system is for me what cemented the "invert Y axis" on the mouse for controlling first person gaming forevermore. My brain absolutely clicked with the 6DoF mindset, but it has meant that all FPS games from that point on had to conform to it, even if the game wasn't in any way flying-based.
A mouse for Descent? We used to play with both hands on the keyboard- look, slide, and spin on the number pad, move, fire, etc. on the far left side. We're we alone?
I would sometimes play “co-op“ with my little brother, navigating with a flight stick and the number pad while he managed weapons and firing. It’s fun to see decades later that we weren’t the only ones to play Descent this way!
That’s the way I started but eventually used two FlightSticks. Banking movement with one hand (forward, backward, sideways), rotating around two axis with the other (barrel roll, pitch), and the thumb sticks I used for up/down and left/right. Although I might misremember some details. There was a time when I really wanted to add a pair of pedals, too. Ah, to have that much time to spare again.
The Macintosh version of the FlightStick had an ADB (Apple Desktop Bus) plug that had a port on the other end so you could plug in another device. It’s been 30 years. Do you think I might misremember? Maybe it was a FlightStick and a Saitek joystick? If you are running the original game on period hardware and tell me that the software wouldn’t know how to tell two different joysticks apart regardless of which type, then I guess I’d have to admit that there’s something fishy with my memory.
look into "period hardware" which is itself a "dual joystick" (typically literally sold for use in descent). it's a gimmick that sold i.e. why have one joystick when you can have two. Then you should just have a single i/o interface to your MIDI game port.
I dug around in my archives and found this post, someone is running Descent in DOSBox on an XP machine and using two USB joysticks and xpadder to set it up.
THE way to play Descent was with a Spaceball Avenger. I was a beta tester for one, holding it in your hand was like your brain interfacing directly with the ship. Sadly the sensors broke over the years and I'm settling for joysticks.
The wingman was amazing. Lot's of leeway and light and smooth. It seemed to have been built for environments like descent, where your fighter swooshed gracefully through space under any 3d angle.
I got made fun of for being a Y-inverted person, but I had my revenge when none of my non inverted friends could reliably control the bucket on a front-loader I had rented. Neener neener.
The first game I played with mouse support in the 90s, I believe, was Flight Simulator 3.0, and I think by default (?) it was set up for inverted mouse (or was MS-DOS Star Wars: TIE Fighter, can't remember).
Since then, when I started playing other FPS games with mouse support (like Quake and similar), this mode prevailed.
However, the biggest challenge came years later with FPS games for smartphones - retraining my mind to play with non-inverted orientation. Quite an adventure!
I got so used to the inverted-y that it's the first thing I change in the game setting as I just can't play on normal settings on any FPS. I wish that inverted-y was the default for all games. I don't know when I got used to the inverted y, perhaps while playing X-wing or maybe Quake.
For me it’s entirely context based. If it’s a flying game, I can only play it if Y is inverted. For an FPS, I can only play without inverted Y.
There’s no real difference between except the context. I just got used to playing FOS games one way, and flight sims the other, and now my brain is wired that way.
Even in games where you can frequently switch between FPS and flying, I can only do both if there’s a separate Y invert setting for each context.
It's exactly the same for me. With one exception: Freelancer. There "pointing" with the mouse just felt more natural because you control the guns at the same time and don't really control the ship but instead tell it where to fly.
I also think that's where they wanted to go to. I read some previews that they planned on having an even more indirect control scheme with you being able to buying better control computers that offer better maneuvers. But we all know how messy the development process of Freelancer was...
For me, I can't play with inverted y on mouse at all, can't with gamepad for ground based games, but for flight based games on gamepad, I can't play without inverted y.
X-wing contributed, but so did any flight game really, like Star Fox for the SNES. It only made sense to play Duke Nukem, Quake, and Descent with the same controls.
I genuinely have no idea how people can stand inverted Y in an FPS. It makes no sense! You're controlling the way you look, not nudging the nose of a spacecraft. I'm very thankful that it's not the default.
If i remember correctly, inverted y used to be the default even for early FPS games. The option to turn it off (opt-out) was added later. The default was inverted (opt-in) even later.
It wasn't a universal default, some games like Quake and Chasm did not have reversed Y by default while others like Duke3D and SkyNET had reversed Y by default. Though all of them had an option to reverse Y, i can't think of an FPS that did not have the option.
And TBH i'm not sure how much defaults played a role back then, they all pretty much had very weird defaults :-P.
I recently came across my first game where not only is the non-inverted Y the default, there's also no way of setting inverted Y as an option! Consequently I can never play Genshin Impact. The lack of a setting is seemingly a long-running issue in forums, as the developers seem to be ignoring requests to implement it.
I wonder if I am the only one who wanted to invert both axes when playing a third-person game on a gamepad.
Ultimately, I found both control schemes equally unintuitive in practice, I'll have to wait until someone manages to make modern Zeldas work with a mouse.
Some friends of mine played Descent competitively, and I was amazed to learn about so-called trichording: to maximize your speed, you need to press multiple keys at the same time to travel along all 3 axes at once, e.g. forward/right/up. The best players zip around the map diagonally.
I always assumed this was a bug-turned-feature, like skiing in Tribes. When I saw the repo just now, I looked for clues, but didn't spot any related comments around the line of code where this ultimately happens:
AFAIK a similar thing worked in in lots of shooters: running diagonally by strafing and going forward gave you sqrt(x^2 + y^2) speed probably because of a design oversight (and because running in each direction was equally fast). In Descent you just added up/down for another axis, which gave you a speed of about 1.7x compared to forward only.
In Descent 2 and 3 you also had the "afterburner" which gave a speed boost forward, but it had limited (albeit quickly recharging) energy, and the speed boost it gave you was greatest at 100% energy and effectiveness dropped as remaining energy dropped towards 0%. So people learned to pulsate it multiple times per second so that it would recharge between the fraction-of-a-second uses and keep at ~95% all the time instead of quickly dropping to low figures.
So if you wanted to go really fast you'd both run diagonally in three dimensions and keep pulsating the afterburner multiple times per second.
It wasn't really considered either a bug or a feature by the original designers, it was just not something they put any thought into. After it was discovered, some designers had a negative opinion of it, others had a positive opinion, and it was a point of contention when the team got together to make Overload after years away from Descent. My wife and I tried some alternatives (by modding D1) and flew a demo for Mike/Matt/Luke/Dan and whoever else was in the studio that day, and eventually settled on "vector independence just feels good" which is why Overload has the ability to change from a normalized flight mode with faster 1D flight into the trichording mode.
In 2D, the diagonal across a 1x1 rectangle is longer than just its sides.
A naive implementation of just adding the x and y vectors together will become their sum, totaling up to the diagonal length, 1.41x faster. In 3d even more.
This is a very common bug (feature) in many old games.
Quake famously did consider this bug while walking but not while jumping, leading to a more complicated trick to speed up called strafe-jumping.
Yeah looks like the calculation doesn't renormalize the final thrust vector after adding together the component inputs. A simplified example for a 2d game would be like this:
var playerX_input = Input.GetHorizontal(); // float in range -1 to 1
var playerY_input = Input.GetVertical(); // float in range -1 to 1
var playerVelocity = new Vector2(playerX_input, playerY_input);
// The player can now move 1 unit/frame in X and 1 unit/frame in Y, which means that if they're moving diagonally, the length of their velocity vector is the length of the vector (1,1) which is sqrt(2) (~1.41)
// This can be corrected by doing something like
if(playerVelocity.length > 1)
{
playerVelocity = playerVelocity.normalized();
}
> Some proprietary sound and video libraries from Interplay have been stripped out (the ACM and MVE format). I have that code if someone wants to help make a converter so the old cutscenes work. It'll take some effort to stub out that code so it compiles.
What did it take behind the scenes to get this approved? Can you go into some of the decision-making? This is nice but a far too rare event these days.
I've had the code all this time, and about 15 years ago(!!!) we were working on a fix for some bugs that had been around a while. At the time, there was talk about releasing the code, but we wanted to get a patch out and find a replacement for the MVE decoder first. I sent an email to the owner a few days ago (after a comment on a different post here) asking if we can just go ahead and strip the code we can't release, and he said "go for it".
> A study published in 2002 used Descent 3 to study hawkmoth flight activities. Using the game's editing module, the researchers created a virtual environment consisting of a flat plane with rectangular pillars, across which the animal successfully navigated.
Some crazy stuff… they Clockwork Oranged a moth to a VR machine with pheromone misters and electrodes
> In this paper we describe a novel insect flight simulator design that combines realistic, interactive visual environments with mechanosensory and olfactory stimuli in conjunction with state of the art multichannel neurophysiological recording techniques. This system takes advantage of currently available computer technology and MEMs fabrication techniques and we use it to examine activity from many CNS neurons in parallel during realistic closed-loop flight of the hawkmoth, Manduca sexta.
I heard many people loved Descent and it looked great to me, it even seemed like a mix between X-Wing and Quake... but I couldn't play it for more than a few minutes, probably the first game in my long career as player that I dropped that quickly. There is something unnerving about it, it's like playing with magnets while wearing boxing gloves. Even watching gameplay videos I get the same sensation.
We didn't have any interaction with that team. Interplay was just the publisher, the developer was outrage Entertainment in Ann Arbor Michigan. This is back when 10 programmers seemed like a pretty big team for a game.
Nice! I sent this to the guy that helped me convert NetPanzer (20+yo code base) from SCons to Meson and he also took the time to setup GH actions etc. Hopefully you get some help!
We originally used Microsoft Source Safe, which added the comments for us. I think Source Safe made us lock a file to make changes, which was a PITA. I think we made a lot of the decisions on where to break out code on a file by file basis because of that. Later, we moved to Perforce, which is good for larger binary files.
I worked with VSS for a while and remember the workflow you're describing (lock, edit, check in) and there being a culture of not bundling related changes into commits but instead tossing files in as you realized they were out of date.
I would still like Git to have some kind of memory of a file being edited in some kind of branch. It would make it easier to communicate work done on the same file because you can discover what is being done to it.
The Descent series was my gateway to the Internet, and really paralleled my coming of age.
I played D1 dialing up my friends when I was 10, which was amazing. I swapped numbers with some folks on the local BBS and played 1-on-1 deathmatches. My brother installed DEVIL, and I learned how to launch things from DOS, interact with a CLI and filesystem, and of course make my own levels.
We got Internet service and then D2 multiplayer, facilitated by Kali/Kahn for match-making completely blew my mind. I think I was 12 or 13, and discovering things like IRC and webpages describing advanced techniques like chording were hugely eye-opening for how big the world was. Making friends on ICQ, and discovering warez was like living in a sci-if novel. I also got into building and upgrading PCs to be able to play at higher resolutions and frame rates.
Descent 3 was a huge step forward graphically, and brought about sniping with the mass driver. It had worldwide rankings, and making the top 100 leaderboard as a 16 year old still ranks as one of my most mind-blowing moments. It was the first time I had high speed internet, and really ushered in the modern era of gaming for me.
Thank you for this. I’ve since moved on in my life (obviously), but it is amazing to have spent some moments today reflecting on all this. I doubt I would be a child of the internet or a software engineer today without Descent.
I could never get into Descent. I liked the flying around in 3D bit, but the fact that the levels were truly 3D (ie, didn't have a ground and up/down) meant I was always getting disoriented and lost. I just didn't enjoy that feeling.
I've had a dream of buying the IP to some older, obscure PC games from this era and then releasing the source code. I hate how many games are getting lost to time.
I think I have more changes beyond what you have. It's been a long time though. If you want to email me I can get them to you to dig through.
Funny to see this :)
Back then I played the trailer over and over and over, waiting for the release... That line is carved deep and immediately pops up every time I think of Descent 3:
> Now, after years of waiting, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Just as fitting today as it was back then :D
EDIT: ha, an internets uploaded it. What a trailer that was...
I had the pleasure of working closely with Jeff Slutter early in my career. Was the first really fantastic engineer I worked with - he’s at Santa Monica Studios (God of War) these days. I think Matt Toschlog is there too now. Glad to see these folks working on an awesome AAA franchise.
Try not to read too much into that, the MIT license was in the original blank repo I started with. There are a few questions I need to get answered, so the lack of that file doesn't necessarily mean anything about the license. The previous Descent 1&2 releases were under the license seen here, I would expect that at minimum (minimum permissibility-wise):
I think I prefer the more “internal” style levels from Descent 1 and 2 over the more open levels found in Descent 3.
To that end, I sense a huge opportunity. We could potentially port the D1 and D2 maps to run in Descent 3, as well as utilizing the newer graphics APIs the game supported. Could be a great opportunity for an all-in-one style remaster.
I also used a flight stick with Descent and Descent 2. I configured the hat switch for strafe up / down and strafe left / right.
Later, I also bought a [Logitech Cyberman 2](https://wiki.preterhuman.net/Logitech_CyberMan_2) 6-DoF controller for playing Descent, but it wasn't as satisfying as I had hoped. Part of the issue was moving / turning along multiple axes which limited the range of input from the controller to the game. So if you only pushed forward, you got 100%, but pushing forward and sideways, you only got ~70% of each (trigonometry). But with a keyboard or buttons, you could get 100% of each.
I also ended up mapping forward / back to buttons because it was less annoying to hold down a button constantly for movement.
I've brought up Kali a few times on HN and never had anyone say they used it too. Glad to finally see another person! What an amazing piece of technology. I used it to play a modded version of Diablo's expansion Hellfire, which without Kali was single player only / LAN with a little hack. There was a great little community on that app.
Yes, the world (and the net) seemed much smaller back then. My first real taste of multiplayer like that (not counting LAN parties) was playing 4 player doom over modem... it required some expensive hardware and software back in the day. I even paid long distance to do it. The BBS running it had to have a special dongle and then the APCiDoom software. Man that was cool.
I used Kali too, for Descent and other games. The chat rooms were true communities, probably one of the first times as a kid that I connected with other like-minded people (aka nerds).
There was also Kahn, which was a similar competitor.
I remember playing Duke3d over the internet. I was completely giddy as me and my friends all flew around with jetpacks on trying to kill each other with pipebombs.
The downside was that those games were obviously not optimized for internet latency and there wasn't much you could do about it. But I definitely had a blast.
That’s how a lot of people got started with Kali! It was bundled with the original WC2 CD. WC2 didn’t support battle.net until much later, as Diablo was the first Blizzard game to use it.
